The Fandom Effect

WoW V FF14...… who will win!!!

July 30, 2021 Mark Halberg/ Devon McVettie
The Fandom Effect
WoW V FF14...… who will win!!!
Show Notes Transcript

This week Mark and Devon dive into a discussion on why World of Warcraft players are jumping ship for Final Fantasy 14. Both MMORPGs have been seen a lot around the web lately and they are trying to find out why. Who will come out on top in this weeks podcast?

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Mark H.:

Welcome, everyone to another edition of the fan effect podcast. Bright and early Friday morning. Hopefully everyone's having a good week so far. Pretty cool topic for you guys today. As always, I am the Sherpa fandom your guide to this weird world of different things that we find ourselves in as we try to explore new and new fandoms every single day, the creator of the Triforce of fandom. Yes, that's ours now. Uh, and I think we'll just jump into it. Because what we're gonna, what we're gonna talk about is

Devon McVettie:

You thought you could get rid of me, didn't you mark, I explicitly did not send you the link. So I hacked your system. I clearly it's clearly I you know what, I had to go through government networks to find this because you thought your VPNs would change stuff but it wouldn't it I got in through your IP address. And I found you.

Mark H.:

I hate you so much.

Devon McVettie:

What's going on Mark?

Mark H.:

You know, we got it. So we try to talk about you know, it's sometimes we talk about stuff that's going on, you know, we cover like E3 and stuff like that. And so we what we wanted to talk about today was the reasons that's kind of been blowing up on like, like Reddit, and like everywhere in the last like week, like week, two weeks. It's been longer, but it's, it's been pretty really recently, since the beginning of the month, that this has exploded where with World of Warcraft, not not World of Warcraft classic, World of Warcraft, losing a ton of subscribers in general, but primarily losing them to Final Fantasy 14 online. And there's a lot of reasons behind it. Some of them, we're not going to get it, we're not going to really touch base on too much just because you know, for a disclaimer effect, we're not there. So we can't say anything. So I'd rather not touch I'd rather not touch base on certain parts of it.

Devon McVettie:

Yeah, we're not we're not Joe Rogan. We're not gonna get into political talks here.

Mark H.:

We're not there. we're not there. We're, you know, we can't say things one way or the other, regardless, you know, like, so it's easier just to stay out of it. So we're gonna talk primarily about the specifics of certain trends that have happened in the games that's caused a lot of Exodus, in addition to outside reasons that have caused other things, because those things in general, I feel are primarily just why WoW lose is losing subscribers in general, but there's specific reasons why while losing them to ff 14. And that's what we're going to get into today is why so essentially, as you can see by the title of the episode, WoW, vs. ff 14 online, and we're just going to talk about the two games a little bit and dive into why one is now on the upsurge.

Devon McVettie:

So first off, for those who are unaware of what Final Fantasy 14 is. Final Fantasy 14 is a massive multiplayer online role playing game for Microsoft Windows personal computers, which, I don't know why Wikipedia always has to put that. But you know, it's out there. It was developed and published by Square Enix just like every other Final Fantasy game. But it's the it's basically an MMO RPG. So a lot of the similar situation, situations Sorry about that. That you have World of Warcraft, where you pick a character you're running around with that specific character in fighting different things. But the difference is it's set in the final fantasy world which after 14 of them is fastly huge. But at the same time you have World of Warcraft, which is brought on with like fantasy based product with like orcs trolls, and you know torrin Well, werewolves I'm just talking to horde now Mark What else we got? We got elves.

Mark H.:

A Night Night Night Elves, but elves are hoard. Yeah.

Devon McVettie:

But these two games are basically they're similar, but different at the same time. So for those who are interested in those kind of games, we just want you to be aware, like, we're watching all the news, we know what's going on. So we kind of wanted to talk into that some more too. So Mark, what are some of the points like you're kind of seeing out there and the reasons why things are changing.

Mark H.:

I think a lot of it has to do with why while is kind of in the big dog for so long that you know, they're not making as drastic changes, you know, where they used to and then you think about it also, you swell classic, which is just kind of back to the beginning of the game. And I think they're going to stop at Wrath of the Lich King or something like it won't be expansions won't go any higher than that or something like that. And I know for a while classic Burning Crusade just came up was you've got, essentially, I mean, you can play both games, right? I mean, on the same subscription, you can play both while classic. And wow. But that's two debts, two grinding games, that's two thing. I mean, most people aren't really going to play both, you're going to play one or the other. And so I think starting wow classic has has hurt them. I mean, people love wild classic, but it's hurt the wild side of it, like wow classic is crazy popular. And it's gaining subscribers every month, but wow is losing subscribers every month. So obviously, it's the same companies, there's probably a little bit of a trade off there. But I don't feel like that helps. And then I feel like a lot of other games to make up for, you know, to fight the big dog. And wow, like with ff 14, they're doing a lot of things of like, releasing a lot more patches in there. They're going after like big streamers and paying in like paying big streamers who are like big wild streamers primarily and getting them to play ff 14, like paying them to try ff 14 on stream. And, you know, I don't see, you know, I'm in there. Now that there's big streamers playing other games, but wow, has been a big dog for so long that they didn't really need to do any of that stuff. And that and others other games are just giving people more chances to play them, you know, they're giving them access to at least one of the expansions for free, they're letting them almost hit the level cap for free. Like they're, they're, they're getting people, they're getting a lot more out of your free trials, whereas Wow, is I think level 20 is the limit on on a free trial.

Devon McVettie:

Well, the other thing is, too, is that a lot of people that I've talked to have said that, you know, because they've been wait for the latest expansions and you know, updates to come out, it's been causing a bit of a rut in the game. And I mean, this is not the first game to kind of do that kind of stuff. I mean, you there's tons of games out there that people are waiting on to get updates for but like, for instance, people are waiting for Shadowlands 9.1 to basically be the update. And

Mark H.:

yeah

Devon McVettie:

now you can only have the same game together for so long till you get bored of it. And it's like, you may have played Call of Duty multiple times, and I've had this conv this conversation before with somebody is that like, Call of Duty puts out the same game, it's loaded the same game every single time. It's just the star behind it is what changes a little bit. And maybe they might put it in a few odds and ends that are different. But it's the same game. And I think that's what people are getting bored with. And so the fact that they're jumping ship for Final Fantasy is, is making it a little more easier on them because you have a different worlds that you're exploring.

Mark H.:

Yeah

Devon McVettie:

having less of a difficulty when it comes to you know, oh, I did this raid already with like four of the people these are the tricks. These are the tips on how to do this. And by creating a new world for them to play in, they have a whole new experience.

Mark H.:

So yeah, and Shadow Lands which was the most recent update for a wow was met with like more disappointment that people who liked it. And a lot of a lot of the complaints that people were saying that it was like, I guess similar complaints to what people have always kind of complained about while but grindy gameplay but that's MMOs in general so that's just like if you don't like grindy gameplay, why are you playing in MMOs I don't really buy that one. But fast news story writing I do buy and then long downtimes between patches because they said the first patch after the game episode was released and there was all these issues as that it took eight months for the first patch to to be released for Shadow Lands and the patch wasn't even that good. And the key cinema the key cinematic for patch 9.1 it has more has three times as many dislikes as it does likes. And that's the main cinematic set up the main patch of 9.1. And I think some of it just has to do with like a lot of other games like ff 14 which is notorious for; its final fantasy, so it's so it's notorious for having really involved story writing, having, you know, very involves cinematics and you know, like so I think what, again, it's just obviously speculation but like what things that ff 14 is doing is they're taking the complaints that people are giving to wow, you know, lazy story writing, you know, skintimate, cinematics aren't as good as they used to be and things like that and there it's that's already been a priority but then they're making sure They keep that as a key focus moving forward. And so I think that's also another reason why it's such a jump because, like we said, wow already losing people because it happens all the time. But ff 14 specifically has taken a large part of that. And there's like these funny names of like fo 14, like the one meme where it's like a guy punching another guy. There's a guy eating popcorn in the background, and it's superimposed images. So it's ff 14 beating up wow Shadowlands with wild classic in the background, like eating popcorn.

Devon McVettie:

Well, I mean, so I'm gonna actually quote a buddy of mine. This is quoting him via Discord. So we have it, you know, written out for any transcripts. But my buddy Sean, I literally asked him like, Why do people hate Wow, right now? game sucks, Dick. I asked him why is that he said it's boring. There's no content. It's not there's no fun class design. And you're basically be paid to win at this point. And to me, that just makes it all sound kind of like a phone, like a phone game, right? You played if you're going to play like these like Shadow legends, right? That that clash, Shadow legends game or whatever. Like, if you pay you get more jewels, you get better champions like you it's there's a lot of games trying to do that right now. It's like I get it, that money rules the world. But at the same time, nobody's gonna pay for something that's just complete garbage. So for me, I totally can understand that when people sit there and say like, Final Fantasy gives them a better shot at stuff like in stories. It's the best. It's the best alternative right now.

Mark H.:

Yeah, I mean, there's other games I played while classic up until 60. And then I just got sick of spending five hours doing raids to potentially maybe get a piece of upgraded gear, if I was lucky enough to roll high enough to win it. Like with the guild I was in and just got I got sick of being like, I just wasted five hours of my day, and I didn't get a single item, you know, so like, what was the point of the last five hours? I'm already 60 I don't get any experience. I barely get any money from the raid, like, this was really a giant waste of my time. So I so I quit playing. I tried playing wow way back in the day, like, I think when the when the Pandora ns had like, just been released as a class, which was a long time ago. And I tried getting into it. But like, that's also part of the problem is that, I think, Well, the problem is that like, wow, doesn't bring in a lot of new players. It's a lot of return players, people that have accounts that are just now coming back into it the right. In my opinion, I think the ratio of people who already have accounts that are maybe making a new level one, but they already have like a, you know, a maxed out account, or whatever. I think that ratio compared to somebody who's never played before, and is just starting a brand new account is very low, whereas f 14 makes pushes to bring in someone who's never played the game before. Right. And I think that I think that, to me, is a is a big factor.

Devon McVettie:

Well, one of the biggest things too, that I've been reading this, like, they took a game that essentially like when 14 came out, edges, like, bombed, like everybody was hyped for it, and it just bombed. And so what they did was instead of them sitting back and be like, well, we'll slowly fix it. Now they're like, okay, we're gonna take this game, and we're going to be, you know, we're going to bump it up, and we're going to change out basically, our whole team. And they put a whole new team in charge and came out with essentially relaunching the game in 2013 as a realm new Realm Reborn. And the widespread like joy that people were having from it was unbelievable. And that's the thing, like, we're not sitting there saying that the game is perfect. Because a, me and Mark have not played it. Just read a lot about it and have friends that have played it. But at the same time I have played wow I've gotten used to it I've played wow classic. And it's just basically like we said before, it just sucks. It's it's crappy. You know, then, and on top of that, like, you know, there's the political side of it, which we're not going to get into. But, you know, essentially blizzards going on is getting under some attack is getting under attack right now by some lawsuits and whatnot because of workplace and a lot of people stand behind. Stand behind victims and things like that. There's a lot of stuff out there that people will stand behind if it's a real good reason and so a lot of people are getting jump ship actually. Now,

Mark H.:

I mean, it's never gonna be enough. I mean, like, don't don't get us wrong, it's never gonna be enough to, to like put Wow, in any sort of danger of shutting down or anything like, there's still such a dedicated fan base that's never going to change. It's just they are losing a lot compared to what they've had before. I mean, I think it's in general, some MMOs tend to tend to go down a little bit. But I think also it's an interesting part of it, but it's something that I've noticed too, is besides the streamer part, I freakin hate fruit flies. So besides the stream besides the streamer part, I've noticed that Final Fantasy 14 does a lot of like, actual commercials, like real, like real commercials, like with real people and stuff and like pote you know, like,

Devon McVettie:

Theres fake people Mark?

Mark H.:

Yeah, has a little has a little fun with stuff. And I feel that again, it just, it's just one of those things where, okay, like, a good example I can bring it to is like, it's like when blockbuster was the heavy big dog in the video rental industry and Netflix had just started. And Netflix offered to sell themselves to blockbuster, and blockbuster turned them down. Because they didn't see them as a threat. And blocked even when blockbuster saw Netflix doing all like this, oh, we're gonna make a website or we're gonna ship the movies to your house now or you know, you can you can pick a catalogue and we'll ship the movies automatically when you ship you know, or whatever. You know, when Netflix first started, like that was the original platform. And blockbuster refused to make any change because they were like, oh, we're blockbuster we're for the big dogs you don't need it. We don't really need to make that many drastic changes because why would our customers ever leave and that Exodus now that won't happen to Blizzard because obviously World of Warcraft is not the only game right they have a ton of other games they do a ton of other things like the there's never enough like obviously like Diablo is Blizz Blizzard, and Diablo has a humongous fan base.

Devon McVettie:

Well I mean, Blizzard is also owns Activision. So yeah, we have all the Call of Duty's as well but

Mark H.:

yes, so yeah, but my name like Yeah, but my point is like I think wow got the people who run the the Activision Blizzard part of World of World of Warcraft got stuck in that mindset of we were the big dogs we've been the big dogs for years, we've destroyed countless other MMOs Why do we really need to make that many drastic changes to improve? Because are we ever going to be in that really much of danger? Now? I'm not saying this is going to get them there? I don't I don't think it is. I don't think it's enough to really do anything. It's just enough to like, give some attention to F 14 and and kind of raise them up you know, the ranking which there are considered like one of the top five MMOs in the market today but

Devon McVettie:

has there now Mark? Has there ever been a game that you've played? You've completely jumped ship just because you can't you just can't stand playing the same thing over and over again.

Mark H.:

Oh, yeah, when it comes to Wow, I do because again, this is kind of a thing of MMOs that I just in general don't really like is that I either have to like pay someone to get me an item right if there's a rare item I just I pay someone to get it and then they just trade it to me or whatever is that there's not really another way to get and to get I don't know if this is the case and F 14 so please feel peels please feel free to tweet us or email us if if we're wrong in saying this but I feel that in WoW at least I know this there's no other way to get the top tier items but by doing a raid like besides getting some sort of world bought like like a boss drop or a rare drop or things like that the vast majority of the top tier items are from rates which you can do like once a week and it's you know, depending on your guild maybe you get it maybe you don't i don't know Final Fantasy 14 is the same but from playing games like Lord of the Rings online when I tried playing that for a little bit Knights of the Old Republic which I still play periodically the free the free version because I mean lightsabers there's other ways in those games to get the top items than just just doing a raid like they like not not as many obviously they want rates to be the primary reason you're getting a top item but there's other ways to get good items than just pay to play or doing a raid or something like that.

Devon McVettie:

Now this is just coming from I think from my older standpoint, like when we used to play like you know, I'm aiming to go back to 90s games going to start off like PlayStation two maybe PlayStation three situation like when they start adding in DLCs and stuff like but it's weird to me now that like you basically pay for anything makes the game better or look cooler. Like, for instance, we've been playing valorant lately and with valorant if you want your gun to look cool or have a certain skin, like you have to pay for it, and I think it's the dumbest thing to me because it's like, after a while, it's the pirates like, well, I don't want to pay for this. Like, I don't want to play this because I have to pay for it. Like that's just dumb. You know, it's it came down to it that all these people are out here you know, paying for stuff that they don't necessarily like need but they just know like, in order to continue the game or make themselves better, they're gonna have to pay for it. And I think that's like the mentality that people are having. I mean, a lot of people out here just saying the final fantasy is just a good MMO like it just yeah, we're all and they're not having to pay for this and that and go through and buy all this extra armor that they don't need. Like, I mean, don't get me wrong, there was stuff in while that like, made you look cool and stuff but yeah.

Mark H.:

I don't know. It's I think it's just that you need MMOs and games like that just have to figure out new ways to bring things to people you know, like, I still play this one periodically. like old school ruins like ruins gave relaunched, I think it ruins game three is stupid. But they relaunched the original old school like style graphics and stuff. Kind of like wow, classic relaunching and doing while classic, and ruin skate old school Runescape, like constantly does bug fixes, or they put up polls like, hey, we've read a bunch of complaints that you guys want, like these kind of things, so vote and then like with the winner, like whatever the vote is, that's what the that's what the developers update on the next big update, you know, like, people were saying that, like, they wanted the fishing holes in key areas to have the fish icon over it. So instead of having to right click and figure out which fishing hole they needed to go to players could just see the image of the fish above the fishing hole in no which one they have to go to. Like something minor, like that makes people who enjoy the fishing aspect of the game, in old school, Runescape happy and so they do things like that, whereas World of Warcraft is so big, they don't really care about that kind of stuff. Like oh, you you wish we did more with these minigames are these events sucks to suck, we don't feel like it. Like, we don't, we don't want to put in the effort to code that or to, you know, to animate it or, you know, whatever. And I feel like that's part of the problem is that you get so they get they're so ingrained on like, we make so much money, who gives a shit? That, you know, it's it's gonna hurt a little bit not not that we're saying that they do it on purpose. It's just, I mean, that's what happens when you're, when you were when you've been so successful for so long. You know, do you like how much you're going to listen to people?

Devon McVettie:

Right? So I did, I was chatting a little bit with my friend while we were doing this, because I wanted to get a little more info from a background standpoint, cuz he's played it. And he had told me that I asked him about the cash to cool items situation. And he had told me that you'd have to grind for the cool stuff. I mean, you have mountain of stuff that you can pay for, but like your good stuff, and the cool things you want, are grinding and stuff. And I think that's amazing. Like that. They did that aspect of it. Yeah, it's a huge, huge, so I'm thinking mark that, you know, eventually, I think we should give it a ride. See what we got to offer? Um, I know, we're playing like 15 different games right now. But

Mark H.:

yeah, we are. But yeah, but it would be it would be interesting, you know, we could do like a, you know, we've we've, we've talked about it, we are contemplating doing some sort of twitch YouTube, like gaming videos, some stuff live some stuff not live where we might just play a game, and it'd be exclusive to some of our other platforms. But it would be interesting to do the free trial on on F 14 and like, give ourselves to like, level 30 or something like and see how we feel after hitting hat. You know, if the level caps at and the free trial is 60. You know, maybe 40 or 40, maybe 40 then would be a good benchmark because of 80s the cap 40s halfway. Okay, how are we enjoying this halfway through maxing out a character?

Devon McVettie:

Right. Right. And I think that it'd be fun to

Mark H.:

it could be Yeah, I think it could be fun to do a little series and then you guys can actually see us play FIFA 14 and yeah, I think I mean, we said this one was going to be probably a little bit shorter anyway, just because it was kind of like a quick topic we just saw blowing up We were like, both of us have played enough MMOs that we wanted to kind of touch and there's huge fandoms in MMOs, which is a different topic, that'd be a very long episode to do on the fandom of MMOs. But that is a future topic to dive into for sure. On the fan, why people like them why they don't why you stop playing while you keep playing. A lot of fans a lot of fandom to dive into on games like that. Because what I would like to do is find people who are playing like the obscure MMOs you know, like, find someone who's still playing the Lord of the Rings MMO and has like, five maxed out characters, like, what about that? I tried playing it. And because I'm a huge Lord of the Rings fan, I couldn't get past like level seven. I think brave I think brave still plays it. Does he? Yeah, I think he's talking about it, stuff like that, you know, like, reach out to him, like type something up. You know, like, Why? What about this game appeals to like as a fan. And so again, future topic, but we're a couple things you wanted to make sure that I wanted to make sure we mentioned in this episode, because it's so cool. So air at the end of July, to prep for next month, just to give you guys a little teaser, obviously, we'll be will, we're going to try to do some full interviews that we have in the works. But obviously there's no guarantee on interview. So it's hard to give you names when we when we don't know if they'll pan out because sometimes they just don't. But get ready for a month of diving into more fandoms the return of some cool segments I you know, we'll do another anime episode next month, I'd like to I'd like to dive into the video games a little bit more perhaps we make that the MMO one but just to give you guys a little bit of teaser next month for sure I can guarantee you and then an anime episode. And at the very least, obviously, an interview or two, when we get the shoe we get the chance. We are no longer on the scene, Stubbs network, I want to make sure I mentioned that due to no fault of our own the network itself dissolved so none of us are on there anymore. But you can in addition to catching us on all the stuff that I'll I'll get into in a minute. You can you can catch us on real rise radio.com every day, in the afternoon, you can catch our episodes playing. I'll you know we constantly upload more episodes and stuff like that. But you can catch us on there. And big teaser for down the road. Me and Devon just talked for probably like 30 minutes before we record this. We have some huge stuff in the works.

Devon McVettie:

Yeah, we're also we also want those out there who listened to us and are recent to listening and they want to know some here's some more stuff that we've had previously. That if you follow our Facebook page, we will be going live on there. Every Tuesday during the day, we'll play our old episode, so you can go back and listen to old episodes that we had. We'll probably just let it run for a little bit. So yeah, that mark.

Mark H.:

Yeah, and you know, we started doing this for a while just to be forgotten. So I'm gonna bring it back with this episode. But your fandom effect Tip of the Week is going to be the if you're if you're if you're starting podcasting, or if you already are podcasting your use whether use I noticed like Foursquare or something is like a platform or whatever. But obviously we use stream yard I think it's pretty good. It works really good stream yard just did a massive update to where now instead of to play old videos on stream yard, you used to have to like be on your computer, click play on your video, and then you know, mute yourself so you're not getting double feedback and blah, blah, blah. So streamer just did a huge update, we're now you can, you can just set up a recording of a old video. Hence what we're going to be doing on Tuesdays. Now we me and Evan will both be in the chat. So if we're playing an older podcast episode on Tuesday, during the day, we will be in the chat talk, you know, so if you guys want to start talking and asking us about, you know what it was like to record this celebrity or like you have a opinion on the fan and we're diving into, or whatever it might be. That's, you know, we'll be in the chat. But she noticed that a huge update, we're now you can just set up all videos and say play this video at 6pm and upload the video and at 6pm it just automatically starts playing, which is huge. And so if you're if you're into that kind of stuff, it's definitely a huge step in the right direction. And I wanted to bring the bags we had done in a while and it seemed it was it was it was a decent decently successful and we did it earlier when we always gave someone some sort of fandom experience at the end of every podcast, something that we've found out or learned that can potentially help help you guys out. But other than that, that's gonna do it for this week's edition of the van effect podcast. Just make sure you as Devon mentioned, follow us on all of our platforms, Facebook and Twitter at Phantom effect. If you want to send us an email, whether you're a fan of the show, or you want to look into us for advertising or whatever it might be The Phantom effect [email protected] all emails go there for any sort of business inquiries or anything like that. If you do want to support the show in any way you can go to buy me coffee comm slash fan and podcast or if you want to join our Patreon soon to be updated patreon.com slash fan of effect podcast there's different tiers and different tiers getting different things such as playing games with me Devin all dm a d&d one shot for you. Everyone you know, you can get access to our Discord. You know, we were trying to open it up but you get exclusive access to our discord as it as it goes up. If you're a Patreon member, you'll get exclusive, you know, rights within the discord and things like that. And you know, we'll follow you back on Twitter or Instagram or whatever your platform is, you know, we'll do things like that we shout you out. Obviously, shout out to our current Patreon supporters, James and Ryan, for your continued support of the Phantom effects show. Always much appreciated. Make sure you follow me Devin on Twitch as well. Devin is at twitch TV slash dreamy, underscore calm. And I am at twitch TV slash Bushido geek closing in on affiliate getting closer and closer to getting affiliate. So keep following us on there if you haven't already and make sure you listen to all of our past episodes. Obviously, it's taken us a little bit you know we've been doing this a little bit. I was I've been doing this a little bit over a year I brought Devin in about six, six months into it. And so Devon's been doing it about six or seven months. So we're obviously still finding our footing, you know, obviously nerdier podcasts are a, like a huge cluster, have a market. And you know, we're always doing what we can to improve our numbers. But thanks to you guys for making the month of July, our best month the podcast has ever had. In terms of total, all of our downloads. We reached new countries, I think we hit we hit Mexico, Japan, Norway, the Philippines. Obviously just a few here and there. Obviously, it's harder to hit overseas stuff, but it's continuing to grow at a continuation basis. And that's what led me and Devin, again, huge teaser to have an idea for a huge plan that will make us very busy, but would potentially lead to some very, very cool stuff for us. And we're pretty excited. But make sure you listen to new podcast every Friday. As Devon mentioned, we're going to start airing some old episodes every Tuesday on our Twitch and Facebook pages and we'll upload some different stuff to YouTube later and just get ready for some more gaming from me and Devin, we're gonna try to get into into some game streams a little bit and have fun with that. Other than that, that's gonna do it for us in this week's edition of the fanfare podcast and we'll see you guys next week and goes find a new fandom